Sarah Mackenzie (00:05):

Hello, hello. We are back. You’ve got Read-Aloud Revival Episode 233. I’m Sarah Mackenzie, and today I’ve got an especially fun episode for you. By far, the most popular episode we’ve ever done here on Read-Aloud Revival is Episode 209, when my oldest daughter, Audrey, joined me to look back on homeschooling from her vantage point as a sophomore in college. We talked about what worked, what didn’t work, and we just sort of talked about our homeschooling experience together. Audrey is, as many of you know, but some of you don’t, she’s the oldest of all my kids. She’s the oldest of six. She was homeschooled all the way through. She never went to school until she did a dual enrollment program at our local university as a senior in high school, and since then, she’s been very busy.

(01:00):

She studied for a semester in Austria, traveled all over Europe during that time, she served for eight weeks just this summer with a ministry in Uganda, and as we’re recording this, she’s just about to begin her senior year as an English major at Franciscan University of Steubenville. Side note, she also happens to be our administrative assistant here at both Read-Aloud Revival and Waxwing Books, so if you’ve written into us before, you’ve very likely gotten a note back from her. This last spring, as I was speaking at all these homeschool conventions, the one thing that I got asked everywhere I went was, when is Audrey coming back on the podcast? And since I am also an Audrey fan, I am arguably the world’s biggest Audrey fan, I thought, yes, let’s have Audrey back, and so she is. Audrey, welcome back to this side of the podcast.

Audrey Mackenzie (01:58):

Thanks so much for having me.

Sarah Mackenzie (02:00):

We just returned from our family vacation to Glacier National Park, where you literally saved your younger sister from a bear, so you currently have heroine status in our home at the moment.

Audrey Mackenzie (02:14):

I did, yes. We were hiking on Avalanche Lake Trail and we were coming back, and a couple of the kids were ahead of me and I was trying to keep up with them, for this very reason, actually. And one of them ran back and joined the rest of the group, but Clara, our 11-year-old girl, was about 10, 15 feet ahead of me just around a bend, and so I came around the bend just as she turned around to say something to me, and thankfully, she did not see what would have been right in front of her had she not turned around, and I see a black bear about 10 feet from her.

Sarah Mackenzie (02:54):

What every mother wants to hear, right? Every mother listening to this podcast just went, “[inaudible 00:02:59].” Yes, same.

Audrey Mackenzie (03:04):

I looked at her and very calmly said, “Clara, I needed to walk towards me slowly right now.” And later, she told me she could tell it was something serious because my eyes got very big.

Sarah Mackenzie (03:17):

I would imagine.

Audrey Mackenzie (03:18):

I put her right behind me and grabbed my bottle of bear spray and backed us up around the corner. Thankfully, the bear was pretty uninterested in us, and hopped right back off the trail to join her two baby cubs as they walked away.

Sarah Mackenzie (03:33):

Not a dangerous situation at all. Audrey said to me, she said to me, “No offense, Mom, but I am actually glad it was me and not you that was there at that moment.” You know what? Same. Me too. I wouldn’t have maintained my chill. I would like to think I’m good in emergencies, but y’all can imagine how I am in an emergency. Chill is probably not the word we would use to describe it.

(04:03):

Well, it felt like a Laura Ingalls Wilder moment, when Ma tells her she has to obey immediately because of a bear. I was telling Clara, because she kind of got worked up after, like it occurred to her, oh, that was really scary. That was really dangerous. I was in a lot of danger a minute ago, so she started crying, this is after, and I said, “Oh, you had your own Laura Ingalls Wilder moment, and you listened, just like Laura did.” Because as a mother, reading that book, I have always thought my kids would not obey as quickly as Laura Ingalls needed to in order for her life to be saved, but now I can say at least one of mine would, because she did.

Audrey Mackenzie (04:39):

My favorite thing was when she said, “I just saw my life flash before my eyes. I spend too much time in bed,” and I’m really not sure where she got that, but it was quite amusing.

Sarah Mackenzie (04:51):

I have no idea. Oh my goodness. So funny. I have snagged you just a couple of days before you hop on a plane to leave for your final year at Franciscan University because we’ve got questions that listeners submitted. Some of these were submitted in the RAR Premium forum and some were submitted on Instagram, and I’m just going to lob them at you left and right. Are you ready for this?

Audrey Mackenzie (05:13):

Yes.

Sarah Mackenzie (05:15):

You’re an English major, obviously, and a lot of our listeners might follow your writing on your Instagram or on your website so they all know what a great writer you are, which makes sense, then, why Gail asked this question, which is what was most helpful to you in learning to write?

Audrey Mackenzie (05:36):

Yes. In the early years, I think the combination of being read aloud to, practicing copy work of well-written passages, think classics and poetry here, as well as memorizing poetry, were all helpful, foundational aspects of learning to write well. The biggest thing is being immersed in good, beautiful language. We can so often get caught up in teaching kids to write before they’ve percolated in good literature long enough, and the more a child is exposed to language audibly, as well as visually, through something like copy work, the better vocabulary and writing abilities they’ll have down the line, because they’ve been presented with what good writing looks like from the beginning.

Sarah Mackenzie (06:18):

I love that you pointed that out, because I think oftentimes when people ask me what I do with all of you kids for writing when you’re younger, and by younger, I mean like under 12, you just named it. It’s reading aloud, that’s what we do for writing, they listen to read-alouds, and copy work, which if you’re not familiar with copy work, I think we might have an episode on copy work, so you can dig into our archives and search in your podcast app and see if you can find an episode on that, but really, what copy work is just where your child literally copies a well-written sentence.

(06:52):

You could take something like Little House in the Big Woods, for example, and just have your kids copy one sentence of it exactly how it is, with the capitalization and punctuation and everything, just copy the sentence. And then as they get older, you can have them add more sentences on. When you guys were really young, I just had you copy a couple words, actually, but then it gets more and more, so that you’re copying this really good, well-written language, and so that when you’re going to write your own language later on, you have all this good language inside you. Andrew Pudewa from the Institute for Excellence in Writing says, “You can’t get out which you don’t put in,” so basically in those young years, especially under 12s, you’re just dumping really good language into your children through read-alouds and through copy work, and then they’ve got all this rich language swimming around inside them.

Audrey Mackenzie (07:44):

Totally. And then as I got older and entered middle school and high school, I began writing essays for my literature and history classes that I was taking at our co-op, and this helped with the more technical side of essay writing. The key here is for your student to know how to form thoughts and ideas and express them through the required format, be that argumentative, expository, narrative, or a descriptive essay. And then another thing worth noting is that every single English professor I’ve had in my three years at university has had different requirements and preferences. The one consistent thing has been the requirement to be able to engage with material and make connections between ideas. This is a skill that truly comes with time and practice, and your student will not master this in a single essay, month, or year of writing, but it will come more naturally with time.

Sarah Mackenzie (08:37):

I love that you took a second to point out that it’s not something that comes quickly. You won’t master it with a single essay. You won’t master it with one year. Writing is one of those things that I think it’s like every time that you do it, you’re getting better at it, even if it doesn’t look like it, even if you can’t see the visible proof that this essay is better than that one or this paragraph is better than that one, so I love that. I think you’re right. It does come more naturally with time and practice, and the practice of thinking through and connecting ideas, that’s the hardest part of writing, so constantly doing that.

(09:13):

And if you’re listening to this and you’re thinking, okay, but how do I help my kids do that? That’s really interesting, because I think narration is oftentimes what we talk about when it comes to thinking through and connecting ideas. And you may have heard my episode earlier on Read-Aloud Revival about narration, where I talked about how we ditched narration. Really, it’s just a different kind of narration. It’s conversational discussions. Instead of relying on the student themselves to do all of the connecting, it’s more of like an interchange where we get to connect together, go back and forth, sort of conversational style.

(09:48):

It’s so interesting to me how I think the bedrock of writing has nothing to do with writing. It has to do with reading aloud, like you said, listening to good language, and then connecting ideas, which happens through discussion and talking about it. Neither of those things are writing, and yet those are two, to my mind, are the two key parts of learning to write, which I hope takes a lot of pressure off of anybody listening who thinks, oh, my 11-year-old is not writing well, because none of my 11-year-olds wrote well. That’s not a thing that you need to shoot for. There’s this other foundational stuff happening. Anyway, I love that.

Audrey Mackenzie (10:24):

And kind of jumping off of that, one of the things I think that’s so important is asking good questions that spark conversation and new trains of thought. My personal favorite professors are the ones who will share their own questions and musings about a text, and then leave the door open for students to play off these ideas. And I think this is a strategy that could be implemented in homeschooling, as well. It can be so simple, even if you don’t feel like you have adequate time to prepare or study the same text or book that your student is, you could read summaries online of the text to get a general idea of what’s going on or just ask open-ended questions. We have a guide for this that we will link in the show notes for you, but I bet the conversations will flow much more naturally than you think once you’re able to bounce off each other’s ideas and thoughts.

Sarah Mackenzie (11:14):

I also think they bounce off more naturally if your kids start to feel like it’s not like a quiz, like, oh, Mom wants to know who the most brave character in this book is because she’s quizzing me, but it’s like if your kids just start realizing… Like you just talk about books, and it’s not like I am judging your intellect or your ability to study or your knowledge of this book by how well you answered this question, because as soon as that happens, it quits being a conversation, so I love that. The open-ended questions are so good for that natural, conversational style, which is why I think I prefer a conversation to, quote unquote, traditional narration, is because it feels more natural. It feels like how adult readers actually interact with books in the real world.

Audrey Mackenzie (11:55):

And it can feel hard to quantify, maybe, if you’re just having conversations, like how do you measure that? But I think you can make it specific if you need to. You could even put some thing on your own to-do list like have a conversation about X, Y, or Z with this student twice a week. And if you do that 25 weeks in a school year, and for reference, a school year is usually about 30, so that gives you some grace in there, that’s 50 conversations you have in one year, and that’s huge.

Sarah Mackenzie (12:21):

I love, too, that gives you something to check off. I love that you, my oldest, Type A child, are like, “How do I turn this into a checklist? I can do this by making…” And that’s exactly what we need. I need a checklist where I can see like, have a conversation about whatever, X, Y, or Z, like you said, with this student, and then I can check it off, because otherwise it’s really hard to measure progress when we’re talking about these bedrock writing things, like reading aloud or connecting ideas.

(12:49):

I think that’s why we want our 11-year-olds to write a paper, or our 14-year-olds, even, to write a really well-thought-out paper, when really, the hardest and most important parts are the conversations and the connecting of ideas, but because it’s hard to quantify without having written a paper, we default to that thing we can measure. Anyway, I love that. I think that’s a genius idea, to use a checklist where you’re like, hey, have a conversation with your student, check it off, and now you’ve had 50 conversations this year with your kid. That’s amazing.

Audrey Mackenzie (13:18):

And it can be so fun, because in college, actually, I was taking an oral theology exam and he asked me some questions, and I pulled from an essay that I wrote on Frankenstein for my English class.

Sarah Mackenzie (13:30):

How amazing.

Audrey Mackenzie (13:30):

And I remember finding that so satisfying to be able to connect how my classes work together, even though they were in different departments, and so it will be more satisfying for your student, too, as you go along.

Sarah Mackenzie (13:40):

That’s so good. This question comes from Helen, and she wants to know if you have any tips for how to best soak up and enjoy high school. And I can also tell you, like as a mother, and I wonder how many of you listening can relate to this, you may start to feel a rising sense of panic. When your child gets to high school, there’s a couple of things going on. One is that feeling of, oh no, now it all counts, I have to make sure I do it right, even though it’s all counted all along and that didn’t change. Number two, it’s time is running out. It’s like you feel that hourglass.

(14:17):

But what I have the delightful experience of knowing, now that you’ve graduated for several years, Audrey, is that time doesn’t run out. We still have wonderful conversations and talk all sorts of things, and it’s just it looks different because that’s the way God made us, for us to shift and change and to grow, and that’s how God made life. It’s not a problem, it’s just the way it is, but I do think that we do have like a pressure to soak up and enjoy these high school years, so talk to us about that.

Audrey Mackenzie (14:44):

Yes. And in her question, Helen said that she was entering her senior year of high school, so great question, Helen. Oftentimes, I find myself inwardly cringing when I hear the phrase, “Live your life to the fullest,” because I feel as if there must be something I’m missing in order to really, truly suck the very marrow out of life. During your senior year, there’s such an anticipation of all the change that’s around the corner. It’s so easy to be swept away in what’s to come instead of what’s right in front of you, so my greatest encouragement to you would just to be practice presence where you are.

(15:16):

There’s a time and a place for planning and dreaming about the future, but when it’s time to put away the college applications and essays, and just be where your feet are. Saint John Paul II is one of my favorite saints, and something I once heard said about him was that he had a way of looking at the person he was speaking with as if they were the only person in the world that mattered, because in that moment, they were. This is a practice that I’ve tried to implement in my own life, and there’s such a fulfillment and a peace that comes from being where you are and meeting what God has to offer you in each moment.

Sarah Mackenzie (15:49):

I love that when you said, “Be where your feet are.” I’m going to put that on my phone wallpaper. It’s like a different way of thinking about being in the moment. I always try to remind myself like, be here right now, and that idea of the person that you’re speaking with right now is the only person that matters in this moment, because it’s the only person that you can have an impact on in this moment, it’s just beautiful. What is some advice that you have for students heading off to college? Especially because this is so fresh for you, you’re at the end now, you’ve only got one year left of your undergrad, but it wasn’t too long ago that you were heading off to college for the first time.

Audrey Mackenzie (16:29):

Yes. I have a few tips in mind for entering this new season of life. The first one is press into the places where you feel uncomfortable. This season of life is so unique and beautiful, but also it can be incredibly hard, and this can be such a channel through which you encounter grace. There can be a lot of pressure to know where you’re going and how you’ll get there, but be at peace. There is no rush. Bring everything to prayer, and listen to the still, small voice of God to guide your way. He always will.

(17:01):

And then secondly, I would say, a little bit more practically, find a family to pour into. This has been one of the greatest things I have done throughout my time in university. I help a couple families with laundry and childcare a few times a week, and it has been such a beautiful thing to witness other marriages and families. And truly, I feel like they have been a far greater gift to me than I have been to them, and so it’s been sweet, especially being so far away from my own family, to be reminded of family life.

Sarah Mackenzie (17:30):

And you go over there for dinner and stuff sometimes, right?

Audrey Mackenzie (17:33):

Yes.

Sarah Mackenzie (17:33):

That’s fun, because when you’re not around your… Audrey’s three times zones away from me when she’s at school. Not that I’m upset about this or anything, all three of my oldest three children are three time zones away from me, and so I love that you have families that you can go have a normal chaotic family dinner with, where kids are standing on the table and interrupting each other, and life feels normal again.

Audrey Mackenzie (17:58):

It’s so true. And then lastly, I think creating rhythms and routines that are sustainable. Hint here, late nights are so much better if they are the exception and not the rule. This will take time to discover what works best for you, but the piece of a well-structured day is so worth it. And actually, managing my own school load in homeschooling has proven so helpful as I do this now in my own life.

Sarah Mackenzie (18:23):

It’s so interesting, Allison, your younger sister, who’s heading off to her sophomore year at Savannah College of Art and Design, again, three time zones away from home, one of the first things she told me after she went to SCAD is that she did not realize how much better prepared she was for managing her workload and her time than a lot of her peers were. I think that’s something that you’re probably giving your kids in your homeschool, even if you’re doing it under duress.

(18:53):

Think about this, I oftentimes will think the only reason my older kids had to manage their workload, their school workload or co-op homework workload, is because I was so busy with 100 babies that I didn’t have time to do it. At the time I thought, oh, I wonder if my older kids are not getting what they need from me because we have all these babies and that feeling of your attention… There’s only one of you and you’re pulled in so many directions, and so you always feel like you’re failing at least a few of your children.

(19:24):

I would feel like, man, this would be better if I could give each of my kids more of myself, but actually, there are some really beautiful things that happen, because God will fill in all those spaces. I just feel like the things that I thought were going to hinder my kids later on, like, oh, I didn’t have time to have as much one-on-one with them, really sit down and help them manage their workload or assign their tasks every day, that kind of thing, it ended up being a skill that was developed because you didn’t have someone to do it for you, so you kind of developed it in a safe place and then that was a muscle that got worked before it really needed to be used now, when Mom and Dad are not around to help you.

(20:07):

Next question, and this comes from, hm, I’m not sure if you pronounce your name Mary or Marie. I bet it’s Marie. M-A-R-E-E. That is a lovely spelling. This is the question, which rhythms and routines did you most love growing up?

Audrey Mackenzie (20:26):

Oh, I am so glad you asked. I think we’ve already mentioned routines like three times in this episode.

Sarah Mackenzie (20:32):

I’m talking with the first child. Can anyone tell?

Audrey Mackenzie (20:35):

Yes, classic Type A, oldest child I am, I do love a good routine, but actually, there’s a lot of research out there that talks about how good structure and limitations are for young children because they know what to expect and how to engage with what they’re being presented with. If you’re having a hard time with a high-strung child, I would look to see what rhythms you can implement in your home.

(20:57):

And if this isn’t your strength area, it doesn’t have to be complicated. This can be as simple as a routine of morning prayer with breakfast or reading after lunch. I think quiet reading hour had to be my favorite routine growing up. But a couple of these habits with things you’re already doing, and if you’re able to punctuate your day with a few steady things, I wonder if perhaps the whole house will be more at ease throughout the less structured parts of the day, because they’ll know what’s coming next.

Sarah Mackenzie (21:23):

That’s really good. I think at certain times in life, too, certain seasons, we have to, like I know when the babies, when the three… For anyone who’s listening, who doesn’t realize this, Audrey was 12, her younger sister was 10, her younger brother was eight, her other younger sister was one when we had twin boys. When we, I did, but everybody had to help, so we did, and so there was a couple of years there where I think, you being that classic Type A kind of child, that was really difficult, because you would ask me, “What are we going to do next? What’s the plan?” And I have three babies one and under, so you’re like, “The plan is to survive this day, and to try to keep everybody alive till tomorrow. Maybe you could get an audiobook and an online math problem set done. That would be amazing.”

(22:09):

It was tricky because I feel like, again, we’re coming back to that idea of like I thought of this as a hindrance, but in a lot of ways, it helped you grow to be… What did I say all the time? “Go with the flow. Go with the flow.” What did you say just recently when I said that? Was it you or was it one of your sisters? I can’t remember who said that they saw a meme that was like, “I have no problem going with the flow, as long as I know when the flow begins and when it ends and what’s expected of me all along the way.”

Audrey Mackenzie (22:37):

Yes, exactly.

Sarah Mackenzie (22:39):

I love that, though, just your comment that a couple of things just punctuating your day with lunch at the same time-ish or the same flow. A lot of times, especially in the early years, for any of you who are juggling older kids and younger kids, I found that instead of following a clock, just a flow, like the same order of events, was helpful. Even if it took two hours longer one day than it did this day to get to that same point in the day, whatever was in our flow, it made more sense to do, let’s say you do morning time and then math, and then quiet reading hour and then lunch. I don’t know. I’m making things up as I go. That’s not the order that we necessarily followed, but I just mean the same things in the same order, not worrying too much about lunch at 12:00 or whatever. That can kind of help. And I kind of think, I don’t know, from your perspective that probably wasn’t as comforting as knowing that lunch would be at 12:00, but I don’t know?

Audrey Mackenzie (23:36):

No, I think having a consistent order where what’s next, even if the time doesn’t totally match up, is better than not having anything at all. I think it’s a great step towards creating that structure, for sure.

Sarah Mackenzie (23:50):

Question number five comes from Instagram, they wanted thoughts on faith formation. I’m really excited to what you have to say about this, because this is a question I get asked at conferences, too, and I never really know what to answer, so I’m excited to hear what you think makes the best impact, because still definitely at work on your younger siblings. Take it away, sis.

Audrey Mackenzie (24:15):

This is maybe the question I get most often when I’m traveling with you or through Instagram or email, is how to instill a deeply-rooted faith in your kids. I do want to emphasize that I don’t think there’s a one-size-fits-all answer. If we look to the saints, we see that faith was not uniformly presented to all of them, but they all possess a zeal and a vivacity for Christ and his church that unites them in sainthood. I also think it’s important to remember that because we’ve been given the gift of free will, we all must make this choice to follow Christ for ourselves. It’s one of those things that no matter how much you want it for someone else, they have to make that choice for them for there to be a real relationship and intimacy with Christ.

(24:59):

And I think we have to remember, too, that it is not our job to control our children, nor is it to hold them too tightly. They are his children first, and he desires their hearts more than you could possibly imagine. There is nothing that he’s not sovereign over and nothing that he is not willing to do for the hearts of his beloved, so take courage and fear not, he is holding your children in his hands. With that said, here are a few of my own musings on the topic, from both my own life, as well as conversations I’ve had with others. I believe that one of the most beautiful gifts you can give your children is an active and vibrant prayer life of your own, one that they can see and experience, even if they do not fully understand. It’s sort of like how they say if you’re stressed while you’re pregnant, your baby will sense this and also be stressed. If you are deeply rooted in your faith, that piece that surpasses all understanding will affect the hearts of your children.

(25:57):

Another incredible aspect of my own life was having other wise mentors, youth ministers, bible study leaders, friends of my moms, my friends’ moms. Having those people in my life that I could talk to about faith who weren’t my parents was so insightful and helpful to me as I wrestled my own questions and thoughts about faith. Your children may not want to discuss all the movements of their own hearts with you, and this is a good thing. The hope is to equip our young people to live out the Great Commission, going and making disciples of all nations, and to do this, they must be separate from their parents. And I think this is such a beautiful picture of what it means to be in the body of Christ, to be many members of one body, to see fully the image of Christ through his other image bearers. We were made to do life in community, and this is the beauty of God’s abundance, so inviting those other influences into your children’s lives can be such a wonderful thing.

Sarah Mackenzie (26:53):

Oh, so good. I’m going to go back to something you said earlier, which was that it’s not our job to control our children, because I was having a conversation with some friends not too long ago where sort of the consensus was, oh, it’s so hard when your kids get older because you have no control anymore. And I was like, I just don’t know if that’s true. I don’t think we ever had any control. We have physical control of like where your three-year-old is going to be physically in the world at this moment, but that control is very, it’s like not really. It’s by the grace of God that they’re here, in the same space in this moment.

(27:35):

It’s almost like we kid ourselves for so long that we’re in control of our kids that as soon as they’re old enough that we can’t convince ourselves, like keep telling ourselves that that is true, then we kind of panic, but actually, it’s been true all along. They were always God’s. They were never your job to control. And I think the other piece is a lot of times, we wrap up our own worth in how our kids come out, which is just… Nobody wants to admit we do it. We all do it and we all feel gross about it, because it’s not right, and so your worth as a mother and your success as a homeschooling mom has nothing to do with how faithful your kids are when they leave your homeschool, because that was not your job.

(28:15):

Your job was to plant the seed. Your job was not to dig up the seed and work the miracle. Your job was just to plant the seed and to tend the seed and to take care of it. I love that reminder, that it’s not your job to control your kids, and every person’s faith journey is different, so your faith journey has looked different than your siblings, and it’s going to continue to look different into your late 20s and into your 30s and 40s, just like mine and my siblings look different, just like everybody on the planet’s looks different. I think it’s helpful to remember all of those things when we feel a sense of panic about like, oh, time’s running out and I’ve got to make sure I got it all in right because I’m losing control, just reminding ourselves that he’s always been in control.

(29:01):

I love this, I’m kind of going off now, but Father John Riccardo said on a podcast I listened to recently, and I said this on a podcast episode for RAR Premium members, Circle with Sarah, which is our homeschool coaching podcast, because I love it so much, he says, “God is not anxious, he is not worried, and he is not concerned.” This is true no matter what is happening in the world, no matter what is happening in your own life, no matter what is happening with your kids, so even if your adult children, something happens that you’re like or they walk away from their faith, God is not worried, he’s not anxious, he is not concerned. He loves them. He already knew this was going to happen. He knew it before you did. He saw it was coming, and he’s got a plan. I think that gives me a lot of peace and hope, too, as we watch our children grow, so I hope that helps anyone who’s wondering about faith formation, too, is so much of it’s about planting seeds, and not about getting just exactly the right results.

(30:05):

I love this question, because everybody can relate to this one, what can we do when a teenager disrupts the school day with a breakdown? I know if you ever did this, I don’t think you did, although there would have been times when we might have thrown what we had planned that day out the window because we needed to talk about other things or deal with some conversations or friendships or other stuff that was happening, where the academics then played second fiddle to everything else, so that could be considered a disruption of the school day, especially if you have a plan you were hoping to follow, but do you have any thoughts on that?

Audrey Mackenzie (30:51):

Yeah. I think that there’s just so many shifts and changes that are happening in your teenagers, and they’re so easy to forget as time goes by, but those four years in high school are really…. There’s just so much happening on a biological level, but also on a heart level. They’re discovering who they are, who they’d like to become, how to engage in healthy relationships with peers, all while they’re still under the wings of your care. It’s a really hard season to navigate. There’s a sense of freedom that is desired, but not quite yet warranted, and so the tension is inevitable. And I don’t have a single friend in college who didn’t wrestle with this in some way, shape or form in high school, some more than others, certainly.

(31:33):

I know that my own experience was very different from both my younger sister and brother. Each heart is unique and each one of us needs different things, and I know we touched on this in the last episode we recorded together, but I always felt so incredibly seen and loved when you, my mom, would take time to sit and chat with me about whatever it was that I was going through, but of course, like anything, there’s a balance. Trust that mama intuition. Is this a passing moment where they just need a minute to step away, have a conversation with you, shake it off and move forward? There’s a lot of different possibilities, but trust your gut on that one. And I also know that Sally Clarkson and her daughters have written a little bit about their relationship and how they navigated things like this in The Lifegiving Home, so we’ll link that book in the show notes for you, as well.

Sarah Mackenzie (32:19):

Perfect. Love Sally Clarkson so much. I got a little teary listening to you talk, so I’ve got to compose myself. Here’s another question that’s a good one, what stands out the most when you look back at homeschooling?

Audrey Mackenzie (32:37):

I think the time I was given to become, to become the kind of woman I am, to bud and blossom in faith and character. This time offered space to explore and ask questions, and wander in the backyard and spend an afternoon with a stack of books or writing a poem. It can be really easy to cram our days full of extracurricular activities and stimulation, but one of the most enchanting things, I think, about homeschooling is that you can create space for souls to take shape and flourish if you guard that spacious schedule fiercely.

Sarah Mackenzie (33:13):

Which I didn’t always do, I will admit. I’m one of those people that likes to do a lot of things, and so sometimes I had to go like, oh wait, we are homeschooling so that we would give our kids more time, not so that we could fill more into our schedule.

Audrey Mackenzie (33:28):

And if your kids are telling you that they’re bored on a free afternoon, this is brilliant, because it’s so good to be bored. This is precisely where wonder and creativity will meet. In Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis says this, “It is simply no good trying to keep any thrill. That is the very worst thing you can do. Let the thrill go, let it die away, go on through that period of death into the quieter interest and happiness that follow, and you will find that you are living in a world of new thrills all the time. But if you decide to make thrills your regular diet and try to prolong them artificially, they will all get weaker and weaker, and fewer and fewer, and you will become a bored, disillusioned old man for the rest of your life.”

Sarah Mackenzie (34:12):

Oh, wow. I have never heard that quote by Lewis, although I’ve read Mere Christianity, so I must have skimmed on past that, because you know I love a good thrill. I must have been like, oh, that’s sitting a little too close to home. Yes, and I don’t want to be a bored, disillusioned old man for the rest of my life. Here’s a great question from Anna Rose, and I do love Anna Rose Johnson. She is the author of a new book out that I have been recommending left and right. Actually, Audrey, you would love this book.

(34:48):

It’s a middle-grade historical fiction novel called The Star That Always Stays. It’s about a Native American girl named Norvia, and I have been recommending it left and right to kids ages 12 and up, definitely to teens and mamas who love classic books like Anne of Green Gables or the books by Eleanor Estes or Elizabeth Enright. It’s got a classic feel, but it’s just out this year, and so good. Anyway, I can talk about Anna Rose’s book, we’ll put it in the show notes, by the way, it’s called The Star That Always Stays. Audrey, you can take my copy to Steubenville if you want it, but the question that comes from Anna Rose is what is Audrey reading these days?

Audrey Mackenzie (35:33):

Yes. I love this question so much. Studying literature and theology at school means a lot of my reading time is taken up by books for class, which is not a bad thing.

Sarah Mackenzie (35:45):

We had a very different reaction there. Go ahead. Proceed.

Audrey Mackenzie (35:50):

A few that I have enjoyed recently that have been assigned for school have been Dante’s Divine Comedy, which actually quickly became a favorite of mine, and I was not anticipating it to, so-

Sarah Mackenzie (36:00):

I’ve never read it.

Audrey Mackenzie (36:01):

So good. So good. And then On Fairy-Stories by Tolkien, and then a Commentary on the Gospel of John by Francis Martin, I also really enjoyed. And then outside of school, I have loved The Reed of God by Caryll Houselander, that’s a short devotional on Mary, and then I’ve also been reading I Believe in Love by Father Jean d’Elbée. This summer, I have had a little bit of a break from school reading, so I’ve hopped back into one of my favorite genres, historical fiction, with books like All the Light We Cannot See, The Last Bookshop in London, and The Tattooist of Auschwitz. I’m a little bit in, now that I’m looking at all these titles, in a bit of a World War II phase.

Sarah Mackenzie (36:44):

Indeed, you are.

Audrey Mackenzie (36:46):

But I’ll just attach a note to that of discretion, these are definitely recommendations for adults. I don’t think all their content is suitable for everybody.

Sarah Mackenzie (36:55):

That’s a good disclaimer, especially All the Light We Cannot See, I haven’t read The Tattooist of Auschwitz, but I would imagine adults-only, but The Last Bookshop in London, I think is great for teens, as well. That one is a great teen read, as well, and that author, Madeline Martin, who I love, we got to have her on our Premium for a Mama Book Club about that book. She has a brand-new book out that I haven’t even started yet, but I cannot wait to. It’s called The Keeper of Hidden Books, and it’s based on the true story of a underground library in Warsaw during World War II. Hello? Yes. The Last Bookshop in London had read-alouds happening in bomb shelters, and I was like, I am dead. This is amazing. I love it so much, so it was a wonderful… She’s one of my new favorite authors.

(37:45):

Well, lovely, lovely. These books that Audrey mentioned, as well as Anna Rose’s book, The Star That Always Stays, and Madeline Martin’s new book, The Keeper of Hidden Books, they’ll all be in the show notes, readaloudrevival.com/233. Audrey, thanks for coming back on the show.

Audrey Mackenzie (38:05):

Thank you so much for having me, and thank you to all of you who submitted questions.

Sarah Mackenzie (38:12):

It’s time for Let the Kids Speak, where we find out what Read-Aloud Revival kids are reading lately. What is your name?

Paige (38:23):

Paige.

Sarah Mackenzie (38:24):

How old are you?

Paige (38:26):

Eight.

Sarah Mackenzie (38:27):

Where do you live?

Paige (38:28):

Minnesota.

Sarah Mackenzie (38:29):

And what is a book that you recommend?

Paige (38:32):

The Rescue Princesses.

Sarah Mackenzie (38:34):

And why do you recommend them?

Paige (38:36):

Because they have animals in them.

Samuel (38:39):

Hi, my name is Samuel, and I’m nine years old. I live in Tajikistan. I love the Dog Man series because it’s very funny and it always ends well.

Michael (38:51):

Hi, my name is Michael, and I’m 10-and-a-half years old. I live in Tajikistan. I like The One and Only Ivan by Katherine Applegate. I like it because it’s funny and can make you really think about life.

William (39:04):

Hey, my name is Heatwole. I live in Georgia, I am 11 years old, and I like Farmer Boy because he is a farmer.

Sarah Grace (39:16):

Hi, my name is Sarah Grace. I live in Georgia and I am 10 years old, and the book I like the best is Sophie Mouse, because she has lots of adventures and she likes to paint.

Sarah Mackenzie (39:30):

That’s it for today. Hey, if your kids want to leave a message to be aired on the show, go to readaloudrevival.com/message. That’s where they can leave me a voicemail, and we’ll air them and feature them on an episode of the show. I’ll be back in two weeks with another episode. You can get all of the show notes, all the books we mentioned today, any books that Audrey mentioned or I mentioned, they’ll all be in the show notes, readaloudrevival.com/233, because it’s Episode 233, and I’ll be back in two weeks with another episode. Cannot wait. I hope you’re having a wonderful start to your fall. Thank you so much for listening, and you know what to do in the meantime, right? Go make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books.