Dr. Matthew Breuninger (00:00):

I think we need to get it into our heads that a big part of parenting is preparing kids adequately to be able to go out and learn on their own. And that a big part of what we do, saying you’ve got enough of the groundwork, and more importantly, we have a relationship where you know that no matter what, there is a channel of communication between us so that whatever happens out there, you can come back and you know, I will help you, I will see you, I will hold you. This is a secure attachment.

Sarah Mackenzie (00:44):

Welcome to the Read-Aloud Revival. This is the show that helps you make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books. I’m your host, Sarah Mackenzie. I’m the author of The Read-Aloud Family, Teaching From Rest, and a growing collection of picture books. And I’m also excited today because I’m going to introduce you to Dr. Matthew Breuninger.

(01:07):

Now, Dr. Breuninger is a father. He’s a clinical psychologist and he’s a speaker. He got his master’s degree in theology from Ave Maria University, and then a doctorate in clinical psychology from Baylor. And now he works in his clinical practice, helping people to weave psychological truth with their faith to present a fuller way to live Christ-centered in our lives. He’s also the author of the book, Finding Freedom in Christ: Healing Life’s Hurts.

(01:38):

Now, I invited him onto the show because I wanted to talk about how we actually connect with our kids. We do it usually around books here. We’re talking about reading aloud and connecting around books. But also, what do we do when we mess up and there is a fracture in our relationship? Also, I wanted to talk about that tendency so many of us have to want our children to behave or act a certain way because of the reflection they are on us. I think this is a real struggle for a lot of listeners to this podcast, myself included. And so we talk about it on today’s show. So Dr. Breuninger, welcome to the show.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (02:17):

So good to be here. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Sarah Mackenzie (02:19):

Yeah. Well, you were one of my son’s very favorite professors at Franciscan University of Steubenville. And I mean, listen, that’s saying something. To be able to inspire a 20-year-old young man, that’s-

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (02:35):

It means a lot to me.

Sarah Mackenzie (02:36):

… well done.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (02:36):

It means a lot. Yeah. I take that as a great compliment. So thank you.

Sarah Mackenzie (02:41):

Well, since you’re a father of five, correct?

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (02:44):

Six.

Sarah Mackenzie (02:44):

Six.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (02:46):

Six.

Sarah Mackenzie (02:46):

Sorry. Man, I’m a mother of six-

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (02:49):

That’s okay.

Sarah Mackenzie (02:49):

… so I should know better. Whenever I hear you speak or read anything you’ve written, I wonder if what you do as a clinical psychologist also makes it difficult to be a father. Are you perpetually worried about scarring your children?

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (03:03):

Yeah. What’s funny is people will say, “Oh man, your kids are so lucky. Oh my gosh, they’re so lucky to have a dad who’s a clinical psychologist.” And I just think, no. I mean, it just heightens my anxiety. Because every time I get it wrong, I’m just so painfully aware of it. And joking aside, I do think it’s been a huge gift for me as I’ve grown as a psychologist, one in how I approach parenting. I think it’s helped me approach parenting over time with greater patience and compassion and wisdom. But no, I get it wrong a lot. I get it wrong a lot. And I think I just lay in bed maybe a little bit longer thinking about who I’m going to be paying the therapy bill for.

Sarah Mackenzie (04:01):

That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. Exactly.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (04:01):

But no, it’s been a huge… I see this stuff play out most readily in how I parent. I get to see my wounds, my growth, my fears, my spiritual life. I mean, it plays out most in the mirror that is my family.

Sarah Mackenzie (04:21):

Yeah. Front row seat basically.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (04:22):

Front row seat. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Mackenzie (04:24):

Quite the focus group to have six children to… Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (04:25):

Yes.

Sarah Mackenzie (04:28):

Well, one of the things we talk about a lot around here is connecting with our kids. And usually we talk about connecting with our kids through reading aloud and through books. I sort of view the books and the reading aloud as a tool to the more valuable thing of the relationship, right?

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (04:43):

100%.

Sarah Mackenzie (04:44):

The books and reading aloud are super useful because-

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (04:48):

100%.

Sarah Mackenzie (04:48):

… [inaudible 00:04:48] connect with our kids. Yeah. And this feels to me like, as I’ve been listening to you and reading your work, I just get a sense that this is something that’s really valuable to you as a father and as a psychologist, a therapist, that connection. I’m wondering if you could speak to, number one, that desire we all have to having really good, warm relationships with our kids. And also that and the tension that automatically butts up against that because usually the people we live with are the hardest people to have relationships with as well. So it’s like they’re the trickiest relationships and they’re the ones that mean the most to us.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (05:23):

Yes. So much of what I do clinically, and obviously as a dad, is through the lens of attachment. So for me, this language of attachment is super important. And so what is attachment? Attachment is the experience of felt safety and security between a child and a caregiver. And that’s really important. It’s about felt security. Attachment, it’s the emotional bond between a parent and a child. The emotional bond that conveys safety and security. I’m okay, I’m safe.

(05:56):

And where do you see this? So if you were to imagine my four year old comes running into a room full of strangers, and I’m standing there giving a talk. What’s the first thing he does? He comes running over to my leg, he grabs onto it, and he holds on for dear life. Why? He’s scared. And when he’s scared, who does he seek? Who does he approach? Who does he want to be close to make him feel safe? Me or my wife. And so he comes over, he grabs my leg. And if I’m being the kind of dad I want to be, I pick him up. I see that he’s scared. So I attune to him. I give him my eyes, my attention. I pick him up. I say, “Hey, it’s okay. These are nice people. It’s okay. You’re safe. I got you.” And I lower my voice and I rub his back and I give him repetitive touch.

(06:42):

And then over time, I feel his little body calm down. And then something amazing happens. He feels safe, he feels secure. So he wants to get down. And he’s willing to explore his little environment or world because he knows he’s safe. Dad’s right there. Dad’s got it. And he can always go back and use me as a safe base from which to explore the world. So this is attachment. Attachment is about feeling safe and secure.

(07:09):

And another way of saying that is attachment is about emotion regulation. So when we’re born, we can’t regulate our own emotions. We need our parents to regulate our feelings. So newborns need their mom and dad to regulate hunger, thirst, fear, exhaustion, tiredness, overwhelmingness, being underactivated, being overactivated. You’re in this really subtle dance that most parents don’t even think a lot about. You’re in this subtle dance of regulating your child’s emotions and kind of keeping it in this nice window of tolerance.

(07:45):

So this is attachment, safety, security, emotion regulation. If we get a secure attachment, it shapes not only our actual brain development, to have a sort of regulated central nervous system or a nervous system that’s not flipped on in danger or anxiety all the time, but a nervous system that is calm, safe, regulated. And if we have a safe attachment, we move from being externally regulated to what they call co-regulation. So now with my six-year-old, we do… So my newborn, it’s external regulation. I’m their entire… But with my six-year-old, I say, “Hey, baby, come here. Look, what’s wrong? Tell me. Use your words.” And so she starts to articulate, “I’m sad. So and-so took my toy.” And now we’re working together to regulate. That is so sad, baby. I’m sorry that happened.

(08:39):

And then I say, “What if we take a deep breath and I wonder what we could do to…” Or, “Come here, wrap your arms around me. Give me a big hug.” We’re co-regulating. We move from co-regulation then to self-regulation. Now, most of us, are adults, are capable of self-regulating. But what I want to say that’s really important is just because we’re better at self-regulation doesn’t mean we don’t need help regulating. So what I mean by that is I’m pretty tired today. I was up in the middle of the night, I couldn’t sleep, I feel tired. But I’m regulating. I’m not flipping my headphones off and walking to the corner, crying and rocking. I’m managing and self-regulating.

Sarah Mackenzie (09:25):

I mean, not usually.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (09:26):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s right. You don’t see me shoving Oreos in my face right now. You know what I mean?

Sarah Mackenzie (09:32):

Not all the time.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (09:35):

I’m reasonably self-regulating in this moment. But just because I can self-regulate and I have that capacity now doesn’t mean that we’re islands under ourselves. We still need, our spouses are attachment figures. So when I’m having a hard time, when I’m anxious, when I’m overwhelmed, my wife is an attachment figure for me. I give her a hug. I tell her about my day. I share what’s going on in my heart. And I feel safer.

(10:03):

So two quick points about it. I know it’s just so foundational though, what we’re conveying to our children is safety and security. The gaze that they see in our eyes that conveys like, i know you, I want you, I see you, you matter. So attachment is about being attuned, seeing what somebody needs. It’s about being available. It’s about being responsive and engaged.

(10:31):

Different theories say it different ways. So you have attuned, available, responsive, and engaged. You have seen, safe, soothed, secure. But they’re all saying essentially the same thing, which is I see you deeply. You’re safe with me. And safety here isn’t just physical safety. Safety here is I can hold all of you and it doesn’t scare me. It doesn’t overwhelm me. Sometimes what happens with our parents is we learn that if I bring myself, my emotions, my fear, my doubt, my anger, if I bring myself, it overwhelms mom or dad, or it’s too much for them. We get this wrong all the time. And the key here is trying to just get better at it and to be better than not. I mean, we have to just try to be good enough.

(11:16):

But when we start to see the world through this lens, what’s really interesting about it, is maybe two things. The first is when we can convey a secure attachment to our kids, they internalize it. It becomes the template or framework that they have for how they see the world. It becomes the template or framework that they have for how they approach other close relationships. It becomes the template and framework for how they actually think about God. It’s called God attachment. It becomes the template or framework for how they hold themselves and their own emotions, how they think about vulnerability and how they think about close connections. So that’s the first thing. Attachment becomes our internal framework or blueprint for how we engage other close relationships and how we show up in those relationships. So that’s really important.

(12:08):

The other thing that I think attachment is really helpful in doing is I begin to recognize so much of my children’s behavior in terms of attachment needs. So I used to come home from work. I’d come home from work and one of my kids, I’d walk in the door, and my six year old or seven year old would immediately punch his brother and he’d start tearing things apart. And I’d be like, “What are you doing?” So then I start fussing at him. “Buddy, stop, knock it off. You’re going to take a time out. You’re going to do that.” Right. Whatever.

(12:39):

What is he asking for? When I start taking an attachment perspective, what I start thinking is, what am I missing? What am I not attuned to? What is he saying to me? What does he need that I’m not adequately appreciating? That very often my children’s behavior, the behaviors they engage in that I don’t like, are actually them trying to communicate something to me that they don’t yet have words for. And it’s usually some need.

(13:06):

So what I find is that my six or seven year old comes in, what he’s saying to me is, without having the words, I had a really hard day. I had to sit down and try to do school and it’s hard for me. I didn’t see you all day. There’s a bunch of other kids vying for mom’s time and attention. I don’t feel seen. I don’t feel… And the second he punches his brother, he’s got my attention now.

Sarah Mackenzie (13:28):

Yes, right.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (13:29):

Now it’s just not the way he wants it, but he’s got it. And so when I start to say, “Hey, come here, buddy. Sit on my lap. How was your day? What happened today?” And he says, “Well, so and-so did this, and I did this. And I wanted to bake cookies and mom was busy and school was hard.” And I go, “Man, that is a hard day. Gosh, what did you do when your brother took your toy? What did you do when you couldn’t bake? Man, that’s hard. Come here.” And I’m rubbing his back and I’m looking at him. And he has my attention and he’s got my gaze. And I can hear his frustration and his anger and his sadness and I don’t have to fix it or change it or alter.

(14:05):

And I’m listening and I’m holding it, and then I can give him a big hug and I can say, “Well, I’m really glad that I’m home now and I get to see you and be with you. What’s for dinner? What are we going to have?” And maybe I problem solve a little bit with him. But before I problem solve, I’ve heard him, I’ve listened to him. And all of a sudden he gets up and a huge amount of that behavior that I was struggling with dissipates because what he’s saying is, do you see that I’m a small kid in a big family and I’m not always being seen the way I need to be seen. And if I’m not actually attuned to him, I hyper focus on the behavior instead of the attachment need. He’s saying I need to be seen and attuned to.

Sarah Mackenzie (14:44):

I think it sounds like what you’re saying then too is that it’s the gaze, you keep using the word gaze, which I’m really thinking about how simple that is as a parent actually, not to have to fix their problems, but just to put down my phone long enough-

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (14:58):

I see you.

Sarah Mackenzie (14:59):

… to actually get down and look in their face instead of just either talking at them while I’m trying to handle something on my phone, or while I’m making dinner or yelling, like, “You guys cut it out.” Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (15:08):

I mean, what does it unintentionally convey? And I say unintentionally because I fall prey to this all the time and I do it, but it sort of unintentionally conveys like you’re kind of a nuisance, or you’re not important enough to-

Sarah Mackenzie (15:20):

Pesky fly.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (15:22):

Yeah. Yeah. Come on. I’m doing-

Sarah Mackenzie (15:23):

You’re in my way.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (15:23):

… important stuff. Yeah. I’m doing the real important stuff here. But when my kid uses their words and they get my attention, part of what I want to convey is if you use your words, you will have my attention. And I look at them. And even if it’s brief, “Hey, I hear what you’re saying. I really want to help you. Right now, I have to finish this email. But listen, in two minutes, I’m going to come back and you got me.”

Sarah Mackenzie (15:47):

And then we actually have to do it. I’m the worst at being like-

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (15:49):

Then we have to follow through.

Sarah Mackenzie (15:50):

… be there in 10 minutes, and then, yeah.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (15:52):

Listen, same. What builds resilience in children? So we oftentimes think it’s like kick them out of the nest, put them on their own, make them… No, what builds resilience in kids is connection and safe attachment. When my kid knows time and time again, dad’s there, he’s got me, he sees me, he’ll help me. When I help my child learn to regulate, then they learn, oh, I can do this, and there’s people who I can rely on to help me do this. And they internalize a sense of safety and security with themselves and others. That’s what resilience is. Resilience isn’t like good luck, figure it out. Resilience is feeling safe and secure in yourself and in others. And that comes through not just connection, but a particular type of connection that we call secure attachment. And if I show up, can you receive me? All of me.

Sarah Mackenzie (16:42):

Yeah. And I’m not too much. I’m not too angry. I’m not too anything.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (16:46):

Yeah. Not too anything. And you’ll help me. You’ll connect with me, you’ll call me, you’ll teach me. But this is so big for these conversations around sex and sexuality. So many of the conversations I want to have with my kids as they hit 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, the stage is set for those when they’re three, four, five, six, seven. When they learn, dad’s got me, he can handle me. We call this being a safe holding environment. What I love about this image of a holding environment is there’s a way we can hold our kids sometimes because it’s easy and it makes us feel safe and makes life predictable, where we create these really, really narrow parameters for our children. And we say, “Stay in these, stay right here. And this is where I’m comfortable. This is where I’m safe. This is where I’m okay with you.” And we say, “Stay right in there.”

Sarah Mackenzie (17:41):

I feel real seen right now, just so you know. Real called out.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (17:47):

This is a do as I say, not as I do kind of thing, I promise. We want our kids to be good. And so this is where I’m okay with you. So I make my kids squeeze into the really tight parameters. Okay. There’s this, which is like, there’s no parameters, there’s no guardrails. Do whatever you want, come and go. Both are not optimum for child development. If the parameters are really tight and rigid and you fit in here and you do this, not good. If there’s no boundaries or guardrails, that’s equally…

(18:20):

So rigidity and chaos are enemies here. What I want is I want a space that’s big enough for my child to know there are boundaries and guardrails. I’m not going to let you fall off the edge of emotion. I’m not going to let you fall off the edge of sadness or fear or loneliness. You’re not going to fall off the edge. I’ll hold it. I’ll contain it. I’ll make it manageable. But I’m also not going to say, “You can’t feel angry. Don’t feel sad. Get over it.” There’s a space between, oh gosh, nobody’s helping me and here’s what you need to feel. And that’s the holding environment. It’s flexible enough to say, “I see you’re sad. I see you’re scared. I know. I felt bad.” And without saying, “Oh, who knows what to do? Oh gosh, this is so big and vague.” I’m this really nice container that’s predictable, it’s consistent. It gives the child space to show up, but not so much space that they completely disintegrate.

(19:16):

And why is this so important? This is so important because this is where connection is. Connection with my kids, I don’t have to be doing tons of things. We’re busy, we’re parents. I will take one of my kids out to the grocery store for 15 minutes. “Hey, you want to come with Dad?” “Yeah, sure.” And then I try to do three simple things. I try to attune. What does he really need? What do they really need in this moment? What’s happening under the surface?

(19:39):

Be responsive. Meaning when they speak, they see that it moves me. I’m responsive and I’m engaged. I’m going to show up consistently. I want to know I’m consistent and predictable in showing up time and again. And if I go to the store for 15 minutes, and we’re having this kind of conversation, 10 minute conversation at the end of the night, when my son walks in the door and I’m cooking and I see that little look on his face, to just stop and go, “Hey, bud, come here. You doing okay?” He goes, “Yeah, I’m fine.”

Sarah Mackenzie (20:10):

That’s a lot of words for someone who’s a teen boy.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (20:14):

That’s a lot… And I might just go, “Hey, I love you,” and kiss him on the head, and say, “I can tell something’s up, but listen, whenever you want to talk, babe, I got you.” And it’s a little like, I can tell he’s not quite ready, but I also want him to know Dad’s here, and I see what’s happening. And this is so important because when we get it wrong, we call that a rupture. There’s ruptures all the time in marriages, big and small. And there’s also ruptures all the time in parenting, which is when I don’t see what the person needs, when I don’t see it or provide it.

(20:46):

So I’ll come home from work. I’m a big baby. I get so hungry by the time like 5:00, 5:30. I’m such a big baby. And I’ll come home and my wife will be finishing dinner up, and I’ll go right into the fridge and I have to snack. I need a cheese stick or like a handful of cashews because I’m just like a big baby.

Sarah Mackenzie (21:03):

She doesn’t like that, just so you know. She’s not a fan. She’s not a fan of that.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (21:04):

I know. And she’ll be telling me about her day. She’ll start saying something about her day. And I’m in the fridge rooting around, and I’m like, “Yeah, okay. Oh, that sucks. Oh yeah.” And I’m like shoving cheese sticks and cashews in my mouth. And that’s a little rupture. Now my wife is like, she’s saintly, she’s so patient, but the truth is she’s trying to tell me about her day. She’s trying to tell me about something that happened that was important to her, and I’m like totally distracted and doing something else. And that’s a rupture. Now, it’s a little one, but ruptures happen all the time, and ruptures are inevitable. Ruptures are when I don’t see what you need and I don’t respond accordingly. We’re going to rupture many times throughout the day with our children and with our spouses. The key is that we repair.

(21:55):

So at the end, when I’m the kind of dad and husband I want to be, at the end of a day like that or at the end of dinner, I go, “Babe, listen, I am so sorry. You were trying to tell me about your day and I was totally distracted. Tell me again. Just run it by me. I want to hear what you’re saying.” And it’s not a huge deal. I’m not groveling. But that’s a repair. A repair is, hey, I missed you and I know I missed you. I’m acknowledging.

(22:16):

And so this happens all the time with kids. And what’s really important in establishing safe, secure relationships with kids is admitting when we ruptured and just saying, “Hey, you were feeling really sad there. And I was frustrated and angry and I totally didn’t give you space to be sad. Can you give me another try? Tell me about how sad that was. Tell me about how scared you were.” This happens with my kid. And sometimes it’s because I’m busy, I’m scared, their problem doesn’t feel big to me.

Sarah Mackenzie (22:47):

Yeah, you’ve got your own, right?

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (22:48):

I’ve got my own.

Sarah Mackenzie (22:48):

Like all your own stuff. Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (22:50):

Yeah. I’ve got real problems. Part of attunement is realizing that for a six-year-old little girl, when her friends take something or don’t invite her, it’s really, really, really sad and hurtful and scary. And so saying, “Hey, last night when we were going to bed and I was tucking you in, I was really grumpy. Daddy was really grumpy. And I know I was short with you, and I know I wasn’t calm and relaxed and I wasn’t sweet. And I’m really sorry. I don’t like it when I get grumpy like that. Do you think tonight I could try to snuggle you before bed or I could…” “Yeah, Daddy.” And she wraps her arms around my neck. Repair, repair, repair. You’re going to rupture every day. It doesn’t matter. Just repair. And repairs don’t have to be big. It’s just, “Hey, I see that I missed you. Can I have another try [inaudible 00:23:39]?”

Sarah Mackenzie (23:38):

Which I love that framework you gave, the attune, respond, engaged. Did I get that right?

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (23:43):

Yeah.

Sarah Mackenzie (23:44):

That’s right?

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (23:44):

Attuned, responsive, engaged. Available, responsive, engaged. Yeah, that’s right.

Sarah Mackenzie (23:48):

Yeah. And you gave that example of it being like in 10 minutes. That doesn’t mean you need to sit down and play an hour of Monopoly or something to agree to reconnect with your kids.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (24:00):

Yeah. That’s actually the point is, in so many ways, if you have that time, great, but there’s plenty of people who sit down for an hour and play with their kids and they aren’t actually attuned. Here’s the point. It’s actually not what you’re doing as much as it is how you’re doing it.

(24:13):

So I just read the first Harry Potter book to the kids. There’s a way of reading to kids, which is like, we’re supposed to read books, I’m reading to you, we’re spending an hour of reading time together. But I’m gruff, I’m impatient, I’m clearly distracted. But I did a good thing and we were together. You’re like, that’s not it. It’s not about what we’re doing, it’s about how we do it. It’s so much better for me to be attuned.

(24:34):

So sometimes we’ll be reading and two of my kids, they’re like puppies. They’re always just touching and falling over each other, and poking and prodding. And sometimes to be attuned means to be like, oh, now’s not the time to read. This isn’t reading time. Come here, guys, come here. Come on over here. And I hop on the couch next to them and I start poking them and tickling them and tussling their hair. And I put the book down because what I see is-

Sarah Mackenzie (24:57):

Again, it’s just a tool.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (25:00):

Yeah, it’s a tool. What matters is the connection and the relationship.

Sarah Mackenzie (25:04):

So good. Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (25:05):

What matters the connection, and the quality of that, that they feel seen, safe, soothed, and secure. That I’m the place they know Dad gets me, and I’m like seen and delighted in, and I’m not too much. Even if I’m grumpy, even if I’m sad. Growing up in my house, I don’t know about your house, there’s certain emotions that weren’t acceptable. And so you have to learn what to-

Sarah Mackenzie (25:31):

Not for the kids.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (25:32):

That’s right. That’s right. And so you have to learn what to do with those as kids. And that’s really tricky because then I’d bring those into my friendships and my marriage and my relationship with God because that’s my template for how it all works. Anger’s not acceptable for children. It’s only acceptable for adults. Fear. I grew up, I love my dad very much. My dad is a tough guy. My dad grew up in a really difficult environment. And fear made my dad really uncomfortable because, for him, fear was meant he could be hurt. In the kind of neighborhood he grew up in, fear was like weakness. Fear was blood in the water. So when he raised us, I was a super sensitive kid, and I felt a lot of fear. He never said it out loud, but what I sort of intuited was, dude, don’t be afraid. You get up in people’s face. You show them you’re not afraid to… And so that was my-

Sarah Mackenzie (26:27):

I don’t know. I’m looking at you, Matt, and I’m not seeing that being your MO.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (26:33):

Listen to me. I know. So you might imagine how… I come to my dad. I’ll never forget this kid said something really awful to me once on the playground. And my dad was like, “Matt, tomorrow you go up to him on the playground, and you put your finger in his chest and let him know what happens next time he does that.” And so what he missed was how afraid I felt. What he missed was how scared I felt. And what I needed was somebody to say, “That is scary.” And I was new to the school, and I didn’t have many friends and I didn’t feel big and tough like that.

(27:04):

And before somebody just said, “Hey, go do this thing,” I needed to feel like you get how scared I feel. And somebody to be like, “It’s okay to be scary. Of course you’d feel scared there. What do you want to do? What should we do? Do you need me to come with you. What do you need? What do you need from me? How can I help you?” And I mean, to my dad’s credit, you want to talk about repair, we had a beautiful moment a couple years back where he sat down with me over coffee, and he just said, “Matt, I’m so proud of the husband and father you are.” And he said, “You parent so differently than I did.” And he said something that really, he said, “I was so afraid. I was so afraid. I was so afraid.” He said, “I’m the most fearful man I know.” And that is like, if you met my dad, you wouldn’t think that. But it made me realize how-

Sarah Mackenzie (27:52):

Which also is really encouraging that it’s never too late for repair.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (27:54):

It’s never too late.

Sarah Mackenzie (27:55):

Because I think as we’re listening to this, a lot of the moms listening are probably going like, man, I did so many ruptures that I never repaired.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (28:02):

One, you can always go back and admit the wrongs of the past too. I can always go back and say, “Hey, I know when you were growing up, I was so afraid that I did this thing, and I didn’t let you guys feel this or see this. And I just need you to know that I see that and I know that. I’m really sorry for that.” You can always go back and begin to repair.

Sarah Mackenzie (28:26):

This is kind of bringing up another thing that I think comes up a lot, especially with the moms that listen to this podcast. And I can only say that because I’m one of them. I’m like them. So this is something for me too. Which I think one of the more challenging parts as our kids grow is remembering that they’re separate from us and not expecting their behavior to… We naturally think kind of like their behavior is a reflection on us. And I think we even do this ourselves. If I’m looking at older women as mentor moms, and I’m looking at how their kids came out, I am embarrassed to even say this out loud, but I know we are all thinking it. So I’m just going to say it, I’ll just be the one that goes first here.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (29:06):

Good. Good.

Sarah Mackenzie (29:09):

We go like, “Ooh, what did she do wrong?” Or, “What did she do right? I want kids like that.” And it’s like we then it ends up making our kids almost like an extension of us that assess our value. I don’t know.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (29:23):

That’s great.

Sarah Mackenzie (29:24):

I’ve also heard you tell this story about going to church and being very embarrassed by your children’s behavior. I just wonder if you could talk about this tendency we have and what to do with it.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (29:34):

Yeah. Okay. So I think this oftentimes comes from how we’re raised. So if we tend to feel this way, I think it can oftentimes be a gentle indicator maybe that in our families of origin, value, worth, et cetera, were tied to… So maybe we felt that. So one possibility is that we felt that very thing. Maybe we felt like we were a reflection of our parents and that was sort of communicated to us in explicit or implicit ways, in subtle or not so subtle ways. And some parents will say, “Don’t you forget when you go out there, you reflect this family.” Some people will just say it. And then you’re like, “Oh, okay.” So then we grew up as parents, and we’re like, why do I feel this way? Life’s a mystery. You’re thinking, [inaudible 00:30:14]. Is there any-

Sarah Mackenzie (30:17):

Connect the dots. Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (30:19):

Yeah. Weird. So very often I think this way of thinking actually signals either that we felt this ourselves growing up, or that there’s some sort of wound around, or we were somehow saddled with this idea that our accomplishments, our achievements were our value. And so if I think that my accomplishments and my achievements are my value, and my primary role right now is mother, then what is my primary accomplishment or achievement? It’s going to be like how well these kids do.

(30:52):

And so I think that mentality oftentimes signals or points me back to some sort of thing in our own story, our own history that is oftentimes worth uncovering. So there’s something like that for me there. I grew up in a pretty high achieving family, highly achievement oriented. And I will never forget kind of coming to the town we’re in and going to church for the first time. And there was this really prominent individual sitting in the back of the church who worked at the university that I went to. And in my circles, this guy’s like the guy.

(31:27):

And I’m in a new place. And one of my self-protection strategies, one of the ways that I make myself feel safe and secure when I’m sort of not living the way I want to be living, and when my self-protection strategies flare up and I’m not paying attention to them, is I want to impress people and make people like me.

Sarah Mackenzie (31:47):

Oh yeah.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (31:48):

Right?

Sarah Mackenzie (31:49):

The same. Oh my gosh.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (31:51):

And if I get the right people to like me, then I’ll feel safe, I’ll feel secure. Okay. So immediately we walk into this church. And I’ve got all these children. And like, you know what I’m saying? Right away, my kids start acting like-

Sarah Mackenzie (32:05):

Of course, children.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (32:08):

… kids, children. And the one is like sitting there, he’s like flipping his hair and he won’t stand up straight. He’s slouching. And I’m like, “Buddy, you stand up. No. Put your shoulders back.” The other one’s fidgeting and dee, dee, dee, making noises. And I’m like, “Buddy, fold your hand. What are you doing?” And the other kids aren’t participating actively. They’re not saying the responses. And I feel the fear and the anger. That’s not true. I feel the anger and the anxiety rising, rising, rising.

(32:42):

And I start correcting them. And I feel incredibly justified. And I’m really able to justify. You’re 13, you should be able to stand up straight. You’re nine. You’ve already been to church for nine… You know the responses. You should be able to fold your hands. You’re four. I teach child development. I know what a four-year-old’s capable of, and you’re not even remotely living up to your… And my poor wife is just listening to this madness. And I’m doing the whisper scream in their ear, that’s like, “So help me.” You just bring all the rage into the front of your lips. And you’re like, “I will take everything you love to when we get home. You want a donut? I will smash the donuts.”

Sarah Mackenzie (33:26):

You thought you were going to have screens today. You’re not going to have screens for the rest of the week.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (33:29):

Yeah. I will give the Wii to the neighbor’s kids. You’re like just everything to try to get compliance. And the truth is, my kids weren’t the problem. I was. And this really inspired my book, helping people begin to identify these self-protection and self-preservation strategies that get us in trouble because I’m feeling angry and anxious, and I’m justifying it. They’re not doing this. I’m not doing this.

(33:54):

And the truth is, it’s about my deep fear. I was in a place where I felt really fearful and vulnerable. I have a new job. I’m in a new place. We don’t know people. I want people to like us. And I go to the old familiar self-protection strategies, which is make people like you. And for me, I will tell you a whole bunch of my bad parenting comes as a result of me acting out of fear of what people might think about me if they saw this behavior of my children.

(34:24):

And I will project that into the future. I’ll be sitting at the dinner table and I’m like, “Gosh, if my kid goes out into the world someday with this behavior.” So I’m correcting some small behavior that, by the way, I mean, gosh, we could talk about this for so long, but so many of my kids’ behaviors too, I have to know what hill to die on. I have to have the virtue of [inaudible 00:34:46]. Sometimes I will correct a behavior that is really shortsighted because I’m critiquing and nitpicking and criticizing when actually there’s a much bigger thing I want to be paying attention to, but I’ve died on this really small hill.

Sarah Mackenzie (35:03):

Well, it’s so true that I will feel like my eight year old will act out, and I’m like, “You’re not going to be able to do that in the world when you’re a grownup.” Well, I mean, right, but they’re eight also. So they’re not actually going out in the world. Also, I would feel like, with all three of my oldest kids who are all now young adults, I remember that feeling intensified the older they got because they’d be like 15, 16, 17. And I’m like, but I mean, they’re leaving next year.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (35:31):

I know.

Sarah Mackenzie (35:32):

And actually a lot of their maturity happened in those first years after they left home. I always think of them, the metaphor I have in my head is sort of like when you’re teaching a kid to drive, you’re in the passenger seat. And what I noticed with all of my older kids when we were teaching them to drive is they got to be a lot better drivers once they had their license and there was nobody in the passenger seat that either is telling them, “Slow, slow, slow, slow down, watch out, watch out.” Like all those things.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (35:58):

That’s a great metaphor. Perfect.

Sarah Mackenzie (35:59):

It’s like we have to get out of the passenger seat, and then they are like, oh, I have to rely on myself. And they kind of step up into the role. But it doesn’t calm my panic when my 17 year old son still is XYZ. I won’t pick on him too much. I’ve only had one so far, so everybody knows which one I’m talking about.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (36:15):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I actually love that example though. And it’s my experience. That’s my experience as well. And maybe part of it is, as parents, what we have to sort of get into our minds and hearts pretty early on is that, well, two things. One is that our deepest identity, my deepest identity is beloved son or daughter of the father. That is my deepest identity. And sometimes when we allow our identities to fall into these other domains, like I’m a mom, you’re like, that is a part of your vocation. But your deepest identity is beloved son or daughter. When I say I’m a mom, well, now all of a sudden everything about my kids is a direct reflection on my identity as a mom. And it’s just not quite true. But to your other point, I’ve had the same experience. My kids are better drivers when I’ve got… They’ve actually learned because so much of their driving was like me… I actually I like that a lot. I have to-

Sarah Mackenzie (37:12):

Yeah. And there’s also something about them just knowing you’re there. And if you are a safe place for them also knowing like, well, mom’s right here. She’s not going to let anything… Versus having to be like, oh, mom’s not here anymore. I got to make these decisions. I don’t know.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (37:25):

No, I love that. I love that. My goal has never been actually to just get complying, non-embarrassing behavior out of my kids, compliance. My goal-

Sarah Mackenzie (37:33):

Short term, it does feel like that. Yes. Absolutely.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (37:35):

It does, doesn’t it? My goal is to form these little hearts that are going to have to be able to go out and learn and connect with others and ask for help and be vulnerable. We really are raising free willed creatures. And what I do is I try to, to the best of my ability, help them cultivate the kind of disposition that when they leave, will feel comfortable coming back and talking to me always. And can learn from its mistakes and is humble and is teachable.

(38:07):

And if they do that, then when I feel embarrassed or scared, or I realize that’s my work, that’s my work. That’s God holding up a little mirror to me saying, “Oh, these are the parts of your heart that need to be healed. These are the parts of your heart that need me to come in and speak the truth of your identity. They need me to come in and speak security and safety. These are the parts of your heart, Matt, that learned to impress everybody because that’s how you got your needs met, but you don’t actually have to do that. You don’t actually have to live… And you’re punching little holes in the souls of your children every time you parent out of that place.”

(38:46):

If I’m humble and honest, my kids are this really clear mirror for me of like the deep wounds in my heart, and my self-protection and self-preservation strategies, and how I need to keep growing. It’s just that because I’m bigger, and sometimes we give ourselves passes and permissions to just not do that work and to try to just rail our kids into this, just be what I need you to be so I don’t feel anxious. I don’t feel overwhelmed. Yeah.

Sarah Mackenzie (39:17):

Yeah. Which again, then if we instead focus on connection through those things you talk about, attuning to them and responding to them, and you beloved child of God, which you need. Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (39:28):

I don’t need you to be a certain way to make me feel safe. I’m here to say, what do you need so you feel safe?

Sarah Mackenzie (39:34):

So good. Okay. I’m going to have to have you back. I just know this because-

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (39:38):

I’d love to. I’d love to. This is so-

Sarah Mackenzie (39:38):

… I have like eight more questions I’d love to explore with you. And listeners, if you have questions that you would love for me to bring to Dr. B. on a new episode, put them in the comments of this YouTube video, if you’re watching the video on YouTube. Or send us an email, support@readaloudrevival.com because I’ll definitely have him back and we’ll keep talking because this is so good. It feels so relevant. And I know that so many of us are struggling with the same things, and we really long for those really deep warm connections. We want our kids to feel safe as beloved children of God. It’s hard to do it when we’re not feeling that safe as beloved children of God ourselves.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (40:14):

Yeah. This was awesome.

Sarah Mackenzie (40:16):

Thanks so much. Hey, where can people find you? Of course, you have your book, Finding Freedom in Christ.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (40:22):

Healing Life’s Hurts.

Sarah Mackenzie (40:23):

Anywhere else that I should direct them? Yep.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (40:26):

I have an Instagram. I’m not great at keeping up with… I post periodically. It’s Ask A Catholic Therapist on Instagram. Ask a Catholic Therapist. Or my webpage, which is www.matthewbreuninger.com.

Sarah Mackenzie (40:42):

Good luck spelling it. No, I’m kidding. We’ll put it in the show notes so you can find it. So if any of you are listening and are like, “I need more.” Yeah, we know. We got you.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (40:50):

Awesome. Awesome. Thank you.

Sarah Mackenzie (40:50):

Thanks so much.

Dr. Matthew Breuninger (40:50):

It’s so good being here.

Sarah Mackenzie (40:57):

We will definitely have Dr. Breuninger back on the show. So if you have questions that you’d really like me to ask him, there’s a few different places that you could put them. You can put them in the comments to this video on YouTube, if you’re watching this episode on YouTube, or you can just hop over there to leave a comment. You can also go to readaloudrevival.com/message. That’s where you can leave an audio message. And if you have questions for Dr. B. that you would like him to unpack with me on a future episode, please leave them there. I’m definitely going to have him back because I feel like there was a lot more unexplored territory I would love to dive into, like sibling conflict and all kinds of stuff. So if you have other questions, please submit them, so we can maybe explore them with Dr. B. next time he’s here. That would be fabulous. Now, let’s go hear from the kids about the books that they’re loving lately.

Owen (41:47):

My name is Owen. I’m seven. I’m from Fletcher, North Carolina, and I like the Boxcar Children because they’re really sweet to other people, and they’re good at finding ways to live in the wild.

Will (42:02):

Hello, my name is Will, and I am eight years old. And my favorite book is Swiss Family Robinson because it has lots of animals. And I live in Kingsport, Tennessee.

Ben (42:17):

Hi, my name is Ben. I’m six and I live in Kingsport, Tennessee, and I love reading about Dragon Masters because I love reading about dragons.

Elizabeth (42:33):

Hi, my name is Elizabeth. I am from Kingsport, Tennessee. I’m 10 years old and I recommend the book Lemoncello series because I like how it has puzzles and adventures in it. Bye.

John (42:51):

Hey, my name is John.

Speaker 8 (42:55):

How old are you?

John (42:55):

I’m four.

Speaker 8 (42:56):

You’re four? Where do you live?

John (42:57):

In Kingsport, Tennessee.

Speaker 8 (42:58):

And what’s your favorite book? Bunnies.

John (43:04):

Bunnies on the Bus.

Speaker 8 (43:08):

Why do you like that book?

John (43:10):

Because it has lots of bunnies.

Speaker 8 (43:16):

And? Police.

John (43:17):

And police.

Speaker 8 (43:18):

Police. Yeah.

Calvin (43:20):

My name is Calvin. I’m nine. I live in Fletcher, North Carolina. I like Adventures with Waffles because it’s funny and the audiobook is really well done.

Phoebe (43:35):

My name is Phoebe and I’m five and I live at Fletcher, North Carolina. And I highly recommend Flossie and the Fox because it’s so funny and Flossie’s trying to trick them.

Sarah Mackenzie (43:52):

Show notes for this episode are at readaloudrevival.com/278. You can head there for all the links we discussed on the show. I think that’s it for now, but I’ll be back in two weeks with another episode for you. In the meantime, you know what to do. Go make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books.